Endriall [LEGACY]

@Hyperant Alrighty then, it has been fun to just have a physics discussion with someone, thanks for that. Sometimes I go down research rabbit holes when im making a planet and want to know how to make it more scientific. Doing that usually ends up making the descriptions for the planets I post long, Like Eirene and Hectarus. Maybe one last thing Id want to mention here is that a gas giant's bands would likely be pretty symmetric across the north and south hemispheres, since they are driven by north-south symmetrical jet streams. But there are some situations where seasonal variations on gas giants makes their bands look really wonky, like here for example. So it doesnt matter that much. Other than that, I guess its time to stop making this comment thread any longer than it already is.

3.88% Water Vapor it is @deepfriedfrenchtoast. This conversation has to end at some point (it is so, so long). The life on Ondriall formed through Abiogenesis, so maybe they do have something to do with the methane and other gases? One last thing is, thanks for your help. You taught me a lot, and I appreciate that. Now that the main problem is solved, there is currently no other reason to continue this convo. Also, I got inspired by your gas giants, because when I was first making Ondriall, it was yellow and orange. But after seeing your planets and how their appearance works, I decided to make a gas giant similar. You know the thing of Ammonia clouds, tholins, convection currents and cells, cool stuff.

@Hyperant When methane reacts with oxygen it makes CO2 and water, but it creates twice as much water as CO2, so if 1.94% of the CO2 in the atmosphere came from lightning igniting methane, and 1% was there from the start, then we would expect 3.88% water in the atmosphere. But lightning isnt the only thing that could have created the 1.94% extra CO2, organisms would also create CO2, but most would not create water, so the ratio of water to CO2 in the atmosphere would change depending on the ecosystems. But I cant guesstimate how much CO2 and water would be made by the living organisms on Ondriall since Im not the one who made it, that is, again, for you to decide.

I can think of one reaction that organisms could use to create more water than CO2. There is methane oxidation, where you continuously oxidize methane with something like oxygen. This would release electrons to power a gradient, and so on. This in the end would create 1 CO2 molecule and 2 water molecules. You can also use other molecules to oxidize methane, but the reaction products are more complicated. Theres a wiki page for methane oxidation maybe it can help a bit.

@deepfriedfrenchtoast Some creatures do indeed produce water vapor as a byproduct, though I do not know what chemical reaction should happen for them to produce it. Also the CO2 was already there during the planet's formation, and because of the creatures, it increased to the present amount. Also, why 3.88%? Does that mean I need to increase because of the aliens producing it?

@Hyperant Without any organic activity you'd expect about 3.88% water vapor (assuming that 1% of the CO2 was there from the start and didnt come from lightning.) I dont really know how realistic 1.64% water vapor would be since I dont know how influential all the organisms on Ondriall should be in creating CO2, it sounds feasible but really thats for you to decide.

Having the patience to be able to take in all that information seems like ann unachievable feat @deepfriedfrenchtoast. Honestly, I am amazed at how you know so much, considering we are technically in the same grade "levels" (and by that I mean high school).

The best part about it, is that we don't even know! Which gives us a lot of new possibilities on how to make alien life. That also means that because it is of our imagination, that also means that the possibilities are endless! I don't wanna sound enthusiastic, but because we truly do not know how alien life might evolve, how it will make use of things, the best thing we can do now is imagine.

So with all that being said, I think a percentage of 0.8% to 2% water vapor should do the thing. I would like to hear your thoughts about that, but for now, I decided to stick with 1.64% water vapor (also in the next update for Ondriall I am making more colors).

@Hyperant The lightning will create CO2 and water, the CO2 is already in the atmosphere, so you'd only need to increase water content to match it with the CO2 content, but how much you would increase the water amount depends on how much of the CO2 is produced by organisms that dont make water, and not lightning.

About the pigments, From what I know the pigments that the organisms would use depends on a lot more than the color of its light source, though you probably already know this. The photosynthesizing organisms on earth use a greenish pigment since their photosystem complexes I & II work better when they receive red and blue light, and so plants use a pigment that absorbs red and blue and reflects the wavelengths of light in between, which amounts to green. So which pigments the organisms use would really depend on what light their photosynthesis processes work best with. Though the systems the organisms would evolve would directly depend on what light they receive, so the organisms receiving the A-type light might have a similar color to earth pigments, and the organisms with F-type light might have their absorbed and reflected color range be shifted towards wider wavelengths of light. Though no one really knows how alien photosynthesis would evolve, so do whatever.

I myself am also in high school, I learned that information about photosynthesis from a 40 something minute video on Youtube (It was after I made the whole description for Eirene and I just realized that I don't understand how cellular processes really work, so I watched a video about it then.) Really the hardest part about learning all this stuff is just having the curiosity and the want to learn a topic since if you are curious about learning something then learning about it wouldnt be painful.

@Hyperant I also ran into the character limit but for some reason editing the comment and pasting what I wrote a second time worked.

I have hit the character limit, and it removed the rest of the comment, so this is what I manage to get through :P

That is quite a lot of info to take in @deepfriedfrenchtoast. No offense, but I really can't comprehend most of that. I mean, I am only in high school, so I know pretty much nothing. But, I can see what you are saying, since I do know a thing or two about ATP and Cellular Respiration.

As for the lightning... Because the lightning happens, does that mean I will need to increase the water vapor and CO2 content? I mean, the lightning forms in the deeper layers. Say, lower atmosphere or where you can still see some light, but where the clouds surround you most.

About the lifeforms, they are nothing like humans. As stated in the description, the creature Sparadoonaxes Fulcotrelis feeds on aero foliage/algae and/or photosynthesize. Currently, the only known lifeforms (that I have written in lore so far) are the Sparadoonaxes Fulcotrelis, and unnamed microorganisms, which come in many varieties, whether they are prokaryotic, to being eukaryotic. For now, I do not have a design for them, nor a complete idea of how they work. Some act like bacteria here on Earth, some photosynthesize, eat others, or some other ways. For now, the composition is like that of Terran Bacteria (Note: I get some info from Christian Cline's "The Teeming Universe" book, so I practically know nothing xd). The Fulcotrelis mainly get energy by photosynthesizing. The two black holes have their color, with the bigger one being white (i.e. spectral type A), and light similar to that of an F-type star. Considering that Targus, a planet in the same system, has plants that use Retinol as their pigment (which is like, purple). Alteraan has mainly red plants which use Carotenoids, but plants that use Retinol are much more common in the northern latitudes and high elevations (i.e. mountains), because the pigment is much easier to make, and takes in light much better than Carotenoids. Fulcotrelis currently have no set color, only that I am picking one of these four colors: Anthocyanin, Retinol, Xanthophyl, or Carotenoids. I do not know anything about how they work, (chemically) only that they are different in color, and absorb light differently. Carotenoids (which are red btw) work best on plants that orbit bluer stars. Retinol, Chlorophyll, and maybe Anthocyanin are suitable for stars below F-type. I don't know which is best, though. Considering that one black hole is white, and the other is like an F-G-type star (somewhere in between).

@Hyperant The lightning will only cause small methane ignition within the lightning itself, there isnt enough oxygen in the atmosphere for a single Flame to spread and ignite the whole atmosphere, but the methane and oxygen will still slowly be turned into CO2 and water because of the lightning, if you were confused about that.

Even if larger organisms feed on each other, (assuming these organisms are at least somewhat similar to us) they would still consume and produce gases since organisms that use cellular respiration in real life both need sugar and oxygen, and the organisms that use light would also need to take in and breathe out gases. I might as well say how the organisms create energy with photosynthesis/cellular respiration because I think its interesting, In both cycles, an electron gradient and a proton gradient is created (these gradients are basically charged particles that are driven through a membrane or outside/inside the membrane. You can think of it as energy going through a wire. The cell can then use the flow of these particles and the "pressure" they create to drive other processes.) The cell needs to get the energy necessary to "push" these particles through the membrane, which it gets from a different cycle/reaction. The electron gradient usually flows through a membrane and is used to create the proton gradient, which itself flows from the outside of the membrane to the inside, or vice versa. To give an example in photosynthesis, water flows into a PS II protein complex, and then with the help of a photon, gets transformed into oxygen, 2 positive hydrogens (positive hydrogen is just a single proton,) and 2 electrons. The protons will be used in the proton gradient, and the energized electrons flow through the membrane, creating an electron gradient. The electrons pass through proton pump proteins, as they flow they provide the energy to pump protons to the other side of the membrane. The less energetic electrons then enter the PS I protein complex and get energized again when another photon strikes the complex. The electrons then flow into a protein where an electron and a proton combine with a NADP+ molecule to make NADPH. (This only happens in non-cyclic photophosphorylation though.) The NADPH molecule then gets converted back into NADP+ in another reaction. The proton gradient created by the electron gradient is then used to power a protein that makes ATP from ADP (the ADP comes from another reaction, the one where the NADPH also goes.) ATP is used to provide energy to the cell. Why did I say all that? Idk you said you didnt know that much about cells. The organisms here would use something else than ATP, but I think they would still use charge gradients since they are a real good way to use the energy from light/oxidation reactions to power other molecule production.

good idea @deepfriedfrenchtoast. about the lightning, i meant like, can lightning still form, and not damage anything (i.e. atmosphere)? plus, as mentioned earlier in the description, it is not just the microbes that live on Ondriall. the microbes to much of the eating and gas producing. the large multi-cellular organisms feed on each other, the light from the black holes, or eat the aero foliage. giving some extra (unnecessary) info, i am much better with multi-cellular organisms, more than single-celled because that is just how i am, and my knowledge about cells if very limited. i learned most of my world-building skills from many authors, like Christian Cline, Alex Ries, and many others.

@Hyperant I dont think that lightning being lower down in the atmosphere would reduce methane combustion all that much since the strong convection in the atmosphere would mix all the gasses even in the lower atmosphere quite a bit. If most of the CO2 came from methane combustion, then you'd expect about twice as much water vapor in the atmosphere since that's what methane combustion produces, Having organisms produce CO2 from methane without creating water could work, though id still expect there to 0.5-1% water vapor in the atmosphere. Though if the life isnt making water with the hydrogen molecules in methane, then they would have to make a different waste gas with it, maybe they take in nitrogen and combine it with the hydrogen to make ammonia.

there is life on Endriall, in the form of simple single-celled microorganisms. with the planet being new, i currently do not have a name for the creatures, stats, or backstory @deepfriedfrenchtoast. maybe i could say that they feed on methane and release CO2 as a by-product, but I'm not sure. i am working on many planets at the same time, mainly Arkkanna. Arkkanna has like, multi-cellular organisms, eukaryotic cells, carbon-based, you get the idea. since endriall doesn't have much oxygen, i could make the life silicon-based. but, in the presence of oxygen, silicon turns into rock sooooo. plus there is lightning in the lower levels so maybe it is safe enough that the lightning strikes don't ignite the planet? about the water vapour, can i make them more than 0.1%, but still less than 1%?

@Hyperant I think that blue haze can be achieved  especially if there aren't a lot of cloud layers high up in the atmosphere. Im saying that water vapor should be more than 0.1% of the atmosphere since it would come from methane combustion reactions which would still happen even if the atmosphere doesnt allow a sustained flame, It would make sense if methane slowly combusting would be the source of the CO2 in the atmosphere, but you would also need to have a similar amount of water vapor and CO2 if that was the case. And yes the low oxygen content is a good thing, since its below the point where the whole atmosphere can ignite from one ignition point.

so does that mean that it is good that the oxygen content is low? about the phosphorus, i am no chemist, and i just thought that phosphorus was a gas itself. the more you know @deepfriedfrenchtoast 🤷‍♂️. water is however, a trace "gas" but most of the other trace gases, (Ethane, Water Vapour, etc) have their percentage smaller than 0.1, so i just decided to add water vapour to the trace gases for simplicity's sake. what about the color, though? now that the planet wont blow up, what about the color blue? can it still be like that?

@Hyperant Yeah thats better, the 3% oxygen is far below the ~12% needed for methane to ignite in a methane-oxygen only atmosphere. Though I still have a few gripes with the new atmosphere composition. It says that 9% of the atmosphere is phosphorus, though phosphorus by itself is not a gaseous element. It would have to be a gaseous compound, something like phosphine. Also water should at the very least be a trace atmospheric gas since methane combustion will occur at small scales creating a bit of water and CO2 (which is already there) even if sustained combustion isnt possible (to be frank, an atmosphere with both flammable gasses and an oxidizer wouldnt be likely since ether all the fuel or oxidizer would be burned away during the giant's violent creation, leaving an atmosphere with flammable gas or a gas oxidizer remaining, and some combustion products. But this is a pretty small scientific  detail, and I'd totally understand if you wouldnt bother changing it for that.)

So now that I changed the atmosphere composition @deepfriedfrenchtoast, what do you think? Can that much Nitrogen make the atmosphere that deep blue? I increased some other compounds and gases. Hopefully this "version" of the atmosphere is better--i hope.

@Hyperant alr

that is what i do lol @QuantumSpaceIndustries. i can show you some pics of most of my gas giants, like Aerlon from Tau Ceti, or Pegasus-56 C.